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IRAQ: "Mad Max Job"
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:02 am
by Mitch
Quote: Originally posted by Major_Tom on 14 December 2004
I sed:
Humvees are a groove, but they have not been around long enough for possible defects to be detected
ydx sez:
I remember seeing one on display at an airshow I attended in 1989.
Precisely. Ford F series must have been around for 30-odd years, Land Rovers have been in military and civilian use for 50+ years. Soviet UAZ (now Niva) 30+ years. Humvee a baby by comparison and I heard hundreds of them broke down in the desert heat.
And so I sez...
Tom,
The breakdown rate of the Humvees is not a function of the newness of the design. It's actually a pretty tough vehicle, and has been around since the mid 80's. We know what few design flaws there are and there's nothing new that cropped up this past year or so.
What has happened is that the use rates and environment the vehicles operate in has pushed ALL our equipment to its limits. M1A1 tanks down to Humvees and field kitchens. We are driving the hell out of things, don't have time to do proper maintenance or overhauls, parts and qualified mechanics are in short supply and spare vehicles are nonexistent. During the desert war phase, when the troops were fighting (chasing) the Iraqi army, it was more like a road rally where the wear and tear on the vehicles caused more material losses than enemy action.
So, bottom line, it isn't the Humvee's design that is at fault. Having driven Humvees and F-150's, I much prefer the Humvee for combat situations.
Mitch
IRAQ: "Mad Max Job"
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:55 pm
by Major_Tom
Mitch sez:
During the desert war phase, when the troops were fighting (chasing) the Iraqi army, it was more like a road rally where the wear and tear on the vehicles caused more material losses than enemy action.
That is rediculous. All that needed to be done was for a sample of the military spec vehicles to be driven hard; a good distance through the Navada desert - any that break down are investigated, problems reported, parts remanufactured, bish bash bosh, problem is solved, money saved, lives saved etc etc
den Mitch sed:
So, bottom line, it isn't the Humvee's design that is at fault. Having driven Humvees and F-150's, I much prefer the Humvee for combat situations.
An' so I replies:
I agree it looks like a tough, capable and well-proportioned vehicle, but I'm thinking about their endurance. F series Fords are lighter, and more effecient, plus they've been much more widely used in many different climates, meaning that a more diverse range of problems have already been encountered and solved by Ford. Throwing Humvees into a blazing desert and using it as a ubiquitous and important form of military transport, when they have not been optimized to take those conditions, was a stupid move.
IRAQ: "Mad Max Job"
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:59 pm
by Anklecranker
Major Tom,
I'm curious. How much actual time have you spent with an F150/250/350? How many miles have you driven a Humvee?
Mitch,
I might ask you the same questions.
Just seperating conjecture from fact.
IRAQ: "Mad Max Job"
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:39 pm
by Mitch
"Good morning, I'm Sgt. Mitchell, and today I'll be talking to you about the tactical employment of the M998/1098 and related models of the HMMWV, or Humvee, versus the civilian Ford F150/250/350 series trucks."
"Stand up, you, before you fall asleep and I have you doing pushups..."
Anyway, I was assigned to specifically drive a Humvee for about 2 yrs while I was first on active duty back in the late 80's-early 90's. As part of the 9th Infantry Division (Motorized), my unit was an infantry-heavy company utilizing specially modified Humvees as troop carriers. We had big brush guards, roll bars and mounting pintles for Mk-19's or .50 cal. M-2's over the cab. The bench seats in the bed were padded and we could fit 7-9 guys in the back, with the driver and squad leader in front. We operated much like a Bradley or 113 APC, but could go more places, and deploy much more quickly. The fastback Humvees seated four, and usually the TOW bunnies got those.
The MP's now use the fastback with a dinky little SAW in the turret, but I've seen some 240's (M-60) and .50 cals. I'm gonna get a M-240 at least.
So I drove a lot in Humvees during my active duty time, counting my time as an assigned driver, and misc. time since. I was a battalion level trainer on the Humvee also, and am in charge ot tactical driver training here in my unit. I guess tens of thousands of miles would be a lowball figure for how many miles I have in Hummers...
As far as the F-150, etc, we have one here now for patrol, and the 4wd is now out. I've had it up in the woods when it worked, and it in no way compares to the Humvee in agility or durability. We had one at Polk also, and it was deadlined a lot too. Not nearly as many miles in the pickumups, but I've seen enough to know what I prefer.
Tom, we're talking apples and oranges here. A Humvee is not what you want for tooling around town or on the farm, and the F150 is not what you wanna go to war in.
Randy, how dare you question the intellectual might and vehicular credentials of John (Goss) Mitchell!!!! LOL! Hope things are going well, and I'll see YOU in San Antonio in the spring!
Cheers,
Mitch
IRAQ: "Mad Max Job"
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:58 am
by ydx7
Ford F series must have been around for 30-odd years
I don't understand that argument. I mean, the Mustang has been around for 40 years, but you can't say a 1965 model is the same as a 2004. But to me, all Humvees seem relatively identical. So could you elaborate on your above statement..
IRAQ: "Mad Max Job"
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:50 am
by Big Bopper Bart
plus the Humvee is state of the art compared to a F series and the U.S amred forces did use American full sized trucks weren't they called the Cutvee's?you can still get 1 ton Chevy trucks from army surplus stores and the occational Dodge power wagon 1 ton and even the awesome Kaiser Jeep M715'Gladiator' truck.a new ford would f**k up and break down all the time compared to the Humvees as the Humves were built for military use in the first place.
IRAQ: "Mad Max Job"
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:50 am
by Mitch
Sorry if I come acrosss as a bit abrupt, but I get crabby whenever politics or military topics get brought up and people haven't done their homework or thought things through.
I don't wanna get into a flame war, so I'll just leave it at this:
My take on the topic is that Humvees are fine for what they're intended. Using them as APC's is kinda misguided, but feasible. I don't feel that this war is being run right, but our troops are doing the best with what they have. I don't think the Army procurement program is solely to blame. The politicians are messing things up like in Vietnam, but there is a lot that needs to be done to overhaul the Army for the new kind of war we have to fight. And we need to regain the discipline we used to have and lose some of the dead weight. Finally, suggesting that we use civilian pickup trucks instead of purpose-designed military vehicles is just silly...
Anybody has a problem with things, e-mail me offsite. : )
Mitch
IRAQ: "Mad Max Job"
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:51 am
by Anklecranker
Quote: Originally posted by Mitch on 14 December 2004
Randy, how dare you question the intellectual might and vehicular credentials of John (Goss) Mitchell!!!! LOL! Hope things are going well, and I'll see YOU in San Antonio in the spring!
Cheers,
Mitch
I knew your credentials...didnt know his. You'll find Me in San Antonio. I'm buying.......
I have spoken...........
IRAQ: "Mad Max Job"
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:38 am
by Major_Tom
Mitch sez:
Finally, suggesting that we use civilian pickup trucks instead of purpose-designed military vehicles is just silly...
Sayyy, wait a minute, I wasn't saying 'you should use a civilian F150', I meant a military version of a civilian truck (sorry should have been clearer). Something that's been in production longer, with familiar mechanics, less bulk, which doesn't cost as much. Then maybe your government could have afforded to give those vehicles better protection, obviating the need for tying rocks and welding metal onto the bodywork.
I've never rode in a Humvee. My cousin used to have a black, lifted F100, which was tough as hell. The annoying thing is that Mitch is probably looking at ten Humvees right now, all I have to go on is the f**kin' news, but it seems, from my isolated castle of misinformation, that the Humvee, as the choice as the US fighting vehicle, was not brilliant. I don't blame the people on the ground for this, as you say they're doing the best they can with what they have.
My final take: The Humvee has a couple of issues which should have been ironed out before it arrived on the ground.